AwareIM needs an installation guide for the cloud

JonP

This is so frustrating! I'm not a system administrator and I don't want to become one. I don't have my own webserver. I'm not a command line ninja. I'll mess with the command line long-enough to get set up (if I'm given clear instructions) and then give me a damn GUI.

I did the 30 day trial on my computer and now that it's over, I want to set up AwareIM in the cloud so that I can develop there and not have to buy two licenses. I imagine my situation is true of many potential AwareIM customers.

I hired a system administrator to set up AwareIM on Google Compute Engine. I would have preferred to do it myself, but there's no real help in AwareIM's installation guide for the cloud. The guide talks about it, but doesn't walk you through it. He got stuck until I forwarded him some posts I found on the forum. He managed to get it installed and the login page now comes up.

But now I need access to the configuration tool and I imagine I'll need access to MySQL. Based on some digging, I think the solution has to do with VNC, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it.

It shouldn't be this hard! I shouldn't have to figure this out in the dark! Does AwareIM not want customers like me?

customaware

Have PM'd you Jon

aware_support

Have you read the Aware IM Installation Guide? It has a section on how to install Aware IM on a hosting server.

JonP

Yes, I did and so did the expert I hired. The installation guide is not remotely adequate. You guys don't see the problem because it's second nature to you. Give a couple examples of cloud installations in the guide at the minimum.

BenHayat

JonP wrote
Yes, I did and so did the expert I hired. The installation guide is not remotely adequate. You guys don't see the problem because it's second nature to you. Give a couple examples of cloud installations in the guide at the minimum.

When you say "Cloud", are you referring to Amazon AWS or Azure or Google cloud or etc?
Each cloud setup (before installing aware) is different. Once you setup the cloud, Aware's installation is just like any server setup.

For AWS, I highly recommend buying AWS installation course from Udemy.Com and take notes and then study the AWS steps. You need to understand it well.

HOWEVER, cloud systems charge for CPU and memory usage during 24hours. Aware server runs constantly, even if you have no users on the system. I was getting bill from AWS even with no user on.

So you may want to use companies who charge monthly fee regardless of CPU/memory/bandwidth usage.

aware_support

As far as Aware IM concerned, it is as straightforward as it can get. Get RDP connection to your remote server and install Aware IM on this server just like it is your local machine. I am not sure I understand what the problems are.

JonP

aware_support wrote
As far as Aware IM concerned, it is as straightforward as it can get. Get RDP connection to your remote server and install Aware IM on this server just like it is your local machine. I am not sure I understand what the problems are.

That would have been helpful to know. You might consider including that piece of advice in your installation guide.

Again, this is second nature to someone like you. It's not to me. I didn't know about RDP (for Windows) and VNC (for Linux) 2 days ago. If you included a step-by-step example of just one or two cloud setup scenarios with a "now go to step X of the regular installation" at the appropriate point, noobs like me would have our aha moment. We could use those scenarios as a springboard to venture out to our own scenarios or just get going with one of yours. Either way, by doing that, you just widened your customer-base and/or reduced aggravation, guaranteed.

intra

Hiring in an 'expert' isn't such a bad thing.

My view is that if you don't have the experience needed to be comfortable with administrating cloud servers, maybe you shouldn't.

I'm sure over time it would have come naturally once you've had a play with it, however expecting AwareIM support to cater for every scenario while you sit back and reap the benefits is a little far-fetched.

Just my 2c.

JonP

intra wrote
Hiring in an 'expert' isn't such a bad thing.

It's a bad thing if the expert also struggles to figure the installation out. If you had bothered to read my post carefully, you would have seen that he too got stuck, which should raise a red flag.

intra wrote
My view is that if you don't have the experience needed to be comfortable with administrating cloud servers, maybe you shouldn't.

Perhaps you're right, but I prefer to learn by doing if possible and save some money in the process. I don't have deep pockets. A couple of scenarios would have allowed me to at least get started and possibly served as the springboard to setting up my own preferred scenario.

intra wrote
I'm sure over time it would have come naturally once you've had a play with it, however expecting AwareIM support to cater for every scenario while you sit back and reap the benefits is a little far-fetched.

You just contradicted yourself. And no, I didn't say every scenario. I said a couple. Reading skills, Intra.

intra wrote
Just my 2c.

That's inflating it a bit. You should pay me for your "advice" because you just wasted my time.

JonP

BenHayat wrote
HOWEVER, cloud systems charge for CPU and memory usage during 24hours. Aware server runs constantly, even if you have no users on the system. I was getting bill from AWS even with no user on.

So you may want to use companies who charge monthly fee regardless of CPU/memory/bandwidth usage.

Thanks, Ben. I might just scrap my partial Google Cloud Platform install and start fresh with that.

customaware

Jon P,

As I offered you yesterday in PM.....

Connect to mean Skype and I will assist you and get you up and running. Much will be clearer after that.

In fact I did the same thing for a new user in South Africa yesterday and that seemed to help a lot.

tford

I feel your pain, Jon.

When I first started with AwareIM 10 years ago, while I had plenty of technical experience, I had zero experience with servers. The main aha moment for me was when I began to understand the statement that support made to you:

Get RDP connection to your remote server and install AwareIM on this server just like it is your local machine

Through the help of a couple users on the forums and a hand-holding phone calls by other users that I connected with via the forums (similar to what Mark is offering to you) , I got up and running. Over time I've learned about various server options for hosting.

By the way, it would be interested to know where your consultant got stuck with the AwareIM installation in the cloud.

JonP

Thanks for the words of encouragement, tford. Yesterday I was banging my head against the wall, getting nowhere and about to implode. Yes, that aha moment broke it open for me. I created a new Compute Engine instance with Windows Server 2016 that had RDP on it and was able to install AwareIM and link it to an instance of Cloud SQL (MySQL) that I created.

It runs just fine locally, but I can't access from outside the firewall, so it must be a port issue. I tried to change the port from the AIM control panel, but that gave me an error, saying I don't have access. It's not an AIM bug because I experienced the same issue trying to edit the file directly. It's weird because I have administrator privileges and the file's security profile says administrators have full control. RDP bug?

That's the next dragon I need to slay, but I'm getting there.

And yes, Mark gave me some very helpful advice about how to run the control panel as a service and still access the configuration tool. Great guy.

I don't know where the consultant got stuck. He wasn't open about his process. I know it wasn't a port issue because I asked him for his settings and he said he didn't make any changes. But he did a Linux install, so it's probably apples and oranges to my issue anyway.

customaware

Open port 8080 in your firewall.

Or change Aware to port 80 and then open that port.

Also, I am not sure it Google cloud has security groups like AWS but if it does you will need to create a security group for the same port.

BLOMASKY

While I can feel your pain JonP (and yes, i have more than once pulled out some of my remaining hair when frustrated with the way I "thought" Aware configuration should work), I have to assume that your "expert" perhaps has a different skill set than is required.

Yes, there are some config files that have to be edited (but they are well documented in the installation guide) and while it would be great to have a GUI for all of the configuration changes, This should not be that difficult.

Every remote server setup (whether you say Cloud, or AWS, or RackSpace or ....) has different ways to configure access and port forwarding. This is where your network "expert" might be of more assistance. Whether you use RDP, or a VPN, or .... once you are not on a LAN, then you might have some "fun" connectivity issues.

Btw, Mark, since so many other programs use either port 80 or 8080, I always change my Aware Port to something that I expect no one else to "hog". That seems to be easier than tracking down what other app is using one of these common ports.

While a GUI is the norm in the windows world, so many servers are LINUX based since a lot cheaper for similar horsepower (ok, forget the fact, perhaps less likely to be hacked... etc.), and there, a GUI is not the norm. Good news, once it is set up, its easy peasy to launch with a shell script but if you dont know how to start / kill processes, then you need to have access to someone with those skill sets.

I know aware's marketing says "no need to know SQL, etc. etc." to build robust applications, but I think that selts false expectations. If you don't have a knowledge of SQL, CSS, database design, and of course, the ability to not just set up your server, but to maintain it. you are severely handicapped.

Even if Aware had simple, automated installation for a server (or, in your case, the cloud), without knowing how to check or memory leakage, killing and restarting processes, you are sort of driving without a seatbelt (or airbag and not the exploding airbags)

But, this is just MY opinion, I might be wrong...
Bruce

intra

JonP wrote
It's a bad thing if the expert also struggles to figure the installation out. If you had bothered to read my post carefully, you would have seen that he too got stuck, which should raise a red flag.

It would raise more of a red flag as to why this 'expert' couldn't do it in the first place. The term 'expert' usually means someone who's generally pretty competent. I too went through the same documentation (a while ago now) and didn't have issues.

Does that make me more of an expert? (answer is no)

There's always 'implied' knowledge at play, moving from 'physical' hardware to 'cloud' means that you need to 'remotely' connect to the instance instead of physically connecting to your local instance . Even if you deployed on physical hardware at a client site, you would still need to remotely connect to the box anyways...

Immediately this raises the RDP/VNC/SHELL question that was overlooked.

My view is that the documentation is fine.

JonP

I got it to work!!! ...mostly

I took Mark's advice and checked the firewall settings. The consultant had set them up, but used a tag to tie them to a specific instance, so I added that tag to my instance. Google doesn't have security groups like AWS, so adding that tag should have done the trick. No change though. Exhausted, I gave up for the night.

Then, as I was falling asleep, it hit me that I had forgotten that my instance runs on an operating system and that OS has a firewall. Duh. This morning I opened up the ports in Windows Server 2016 and was able to access the sample sales portal app from outside the firewall. The Google Maps plugin failed, but that's probably also a port issue and easy to fix.

It's funny how most epiphanies hit after the mind surrenders and relaxes. Then the blinders come off.

JonP

BLOMASKY wrote
While I can feel your pain JonP (and yes, i have more than once pulled out some of my remaining hair when frustrated with the way I "thought" Aware configuration should work), I have to assume that your "expert" perhaps has a different skill set than is required.

That turned out to be the case, but he fixed an unrelated issue and helped grease the skids for me to persevere, so I probably got my money's worth.

BLOMASKY wrote
Yes, there are some config files that have to be edited (but they are well documented in the installation guide) and while it would be great to have a GUI for all of the configuration changes, This should not be that difficult.

If I had to go through this process with just the command line and combing the web for nuggets of wisdom, I would have said, "Screw this!" Someone like me needs the comfort of a GUI. Eventually as I get more confident, I may be able to graduate to the command line, but definitely not during the stressful setup phase.

BLOMASKY wrote
Btw, Mark, since so many other programs use either port 80 or 8080, I always change my Aware Port to something that I expect no one else to "hog". That seems to be easier than tracking down what other app is using one of these common ports.

Yes, Mark's advice is a good "training wheels" suggestion for an overwhelmed noob just trying to get it functional since those ports are always open, but definitely not a long-term solution.

BLOMASKY wrote
While a GUI is the norm in the windows world, so many servers are LINUX based since a lot cheaper for similar horsepower (ok, forget the fact, perhaps less likely to be hacked... etc.), and there, a GUI is not the norm. Good news, once it is set up, its easy peasy to launch with a shell script but if you dont know how to start / kill processes, then you need to have access to someone with those skill sets.

That's a good goal to work toward. I think the next instance will be a Linux OS with a rich GUI like Gnome for VNCing. Then after that, the [dreaded] shell. Baby steps.

BLOMASKY wrote
I know aware's marketing says "no need to know SQL, etc. etc." to build robust applications, but I think that sets false expectations. If you don't have a knowledge of SQL, CSS, database design, and of course, the ability to not just set up your server, but to maintain it. you are severely handicapped.

Yes, my initial email was angry because I felt somewhat betrayed. The responses from aware_support only reinforced my view that these guys just don't get it. I believe AIM's slogan is "Development for non-coders" or something like that. I'm sure they believe that. But just as a fish doesn't understand what water is, these brilliant coders can't relate to someone like me because I'm not coming from the same place as them. It explains why AIM is so byzantine (which I understand they are addressing for v8-). It explains the user guide, which is thorough, but somehow doesn't get people up to speed. And it explains the disconnect of why they don't see that the installation guide doesn't go far-enough...assuming I fit their customer profile, which I believe I do.

BLOMASKY wrote
Even if Aware had simple, automated installation for a server (or, in your case, the cloud), without knowing how to check for memory leakage, killing and restarting processes, you are sort of driving without a seatbelt (or airbag and not the exploding airbags).

But, this is just MY opinion, I might be wrong...
Bruce

What you are describing is the goal that I hope to reach. What I am describing is the journey to the goal and what I need to reach it.

tford

Sounds like you now qualify as a consultant, Jon.

JonP

Yes, I should put out a shingle. I call it Stumbling Bumbling Fumbling Consulting. 😃